Common OOC thread

[edit: baleeted]

Other side of this conversation is game balance. Having the monstrous race gives you a large advantage over a non-monstrous race. To balance the advantages you gain, you lose the opportunity of gaining a free lvl in another class. For instance, a gnome doesn't have that many natural abilities (some spell-like, but nothing game altering), however, it can take a lvl in sorceror and then advance in another class giving them the spells and save bonus's for the sorc without forcing them to continue lvling it if they choose another class. A monstrous race basically has its racial abilities as its free lvls (it has to spend lvl's to acquire them, same as the other races do for a favored class). This is how the two balance out. If a monster race also gets a favored class it basically eliminates the balance of playing a standard character. You get to choose to lvl your monster, the other class and your "primary" class without any penalty which gives you a substantial advantage. It can be argued in both mechanics and in concept that monstrous classes shouldn't also have a favored class. I'm with the standing rule on this one I think.

I disagree completely. You have to gain levels to max out the monstrous class. It's not like you get free levels. That is why there are ECL and LA involved. For Underlost/Blackscale, I have to use 7 character levels to reach the end of the progression. An 8th level sorcerer-gnome is considered equivalent to a 1st level sorcerer-underlost. The game balance is taken into account by the amount of levels required for the progression. This is essentially what the 'acid test' is for that Jerry has been talking about. It is discussed in detail in the Savage Species book. The monstrous races require some level adjustment (LA) automatically (found in the Monstrous Manual) and more to reach the progression. An underlost is a 7 level progression due to the +3 hit dice it gains (total of 4 at the end of the progression), the natural attacks (d6 at the end), the natural armor boost, and the stat bonuses (despite the inital hit to INT and CHA). Taking all of these into account, it would require an 8th level standard race character to be equivalent. This is where the game balance issue is resolved. Each class level a standard race takes, they gain a hit die, where as the monstrous races do not gain an HD at every level. A 1st level underlost-sorc would have 4d8+1d4+(con bonus x 5) HP, while an 8th level gnome-sorc would have 8d4+(con bonus x8) HP. Considering all the bonus spells and higher level spells, these two characters would be considered equivalent.

EDIT: Also, I'm not saying that the monstrous races need to have two favored classes, because that is ridiculous. What I'm saying is that the monstrous race should have a favored class that is separate from its race. Much like a gnome would make a good sorcerer, an underlost would make a good fighter or barbarian (obv. only one would be favored). So the racial levels would count when checking for XP penalties, but only until the progression is reached. Otherwise, a gnome should have XP penalties when it has a non-favored class get higher than level 2. gnome 1, barbarian 3 would have XP penalties because the racial level and the non-favored level would be more than 1 apart... unless the maxed gnome-progression no longer counts when computing XP penalties.

i agree with everything that alex said, EXCEPT gnome level is 0, not 1, so they should start receiving multiclassing penalties at level 2 instead of 3 (0 gnome, 2 barbarian).

Great explaination though, i'm just being nit picky :)

Heh, fair enough. Let's be honest, I may have been just as nit-picky. Good catch, though. I forgot that the standard races count as 0.

Happy July folks!


This insightful discussion has been the cause for much thinking, reflecting, and reference-checking. I am reluctant to potentially curtail it (and am not trying to), but, in contrast to what I said before, we'll be applying a partial revision (instead of going one way or the other), as follows:

Only certain monstrous (non-Core) races offer favored classes that do not consist of their own race. Specifically, these races include those whose savage level progressions do not include innate saving throw, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or skill point increases.

This is based on references I've found from the Savage Species book itself, as well as some resources on the Wizards website, and a few miscellaneous discussions on other roleplaying forums. These sources appear to confirm that in fact the original decision to assign the higher-powered monstrous races their own racial class as their favored class was the correct choice to make.

Note that this has no impact on (and in fact justifies) the in-place mechanic for why a monstrous player character who has maxed out his or her savage levels does not have to suffer XP penalties due to additional multiclassing after completing this progression.

The experience level progression concept is extrapolated in such a crazy way - that is, Savage Species really unlocked a whole new realm of thinking - because until such a concept as savage progressions became known, experience level-based development was considered to be based on improvement in abilities due to training, not physical growth and development. Adapating the experience system to use its level-based advancement to characterize the growth of a monster character naturally directs the favored class concept to be the class that the monster character favors. Spoken another way, given that a monster's more exotic (compared to human) abilities are all innate and naturally attained, it would not make sense for them not to have their own monstrous race as their favored class even during their growth. It is, afterall, innate.

The ruling above is consistent with the logic behind why template classes (such as half-celestial, half-fiend, lycanthrope) - those that require a base race - never count toward XP penalties due to multiclassing.

I'll revise the monstrous race files and re-upload them - they will be available by the end of today. The most significant revision this will bring to the game will be a class that is currently not being used - the Xurrican monstrous racial class (native to Aquatrane). It will undergo re-classification from a template class to being a full monstrous racial class, thus having itself (Xurrican) as a favored class.

Two more quick things:

One, I believe that, justifications aside, it is a good idea to keep multiclassing on the side of the Core or Core-equivalent races (which naturally encourage this due to their non-racial favored classes), so that a balance of appeal to players is maintained - the monstrous races are in themselves the appeal for players, whereas an incentive to stick with Core (or Core-equivalent) races would be the multiclassing potential. (It is also more common to see multiclassed humans, elves, or gnomes, than trolls, bugbears, or dragons.)

Two, I'm actually going to contact Wizards with a question related to this, and when (if) I get a response I'll post it here! My question is going to be:

"One of my players brought up an idea of allowing monstrous races to have a favored adventuring class, but suffer the standard XP penalties due to multiclassing for having its own monstrous racial class until it has reached its full savage progression (after which it no longer does). Thus, for example, if a Minotaur's favored class was Barbarian, it could multiclass as a Minotaur/Barbarian, and then, after completing its Minotaur savage progression (all 6 levels), possibly take on a third class (second adventuring class), without suffering further XP penalties.

Good idea? Bad idea?"

Sounds like a good question. I acknowledge that you have made your ruling on the issue (and I didn't actually even realize we were debating the topic for you, I thought we were just debating it theoretically for our own interest ) but I'm gonna respond to alex anyway, just for the sake of argument (which we all know I love).

When I said that you get "free" lvls in your racial class I meant that you get them free of xp penalties, not free as in you get to just lvl them up whenever. Like a favored class for a core race, they still have to have the xp to lvl it up, but they can take it free of worries of xp penalties.

It sounds to me like Andrew's complaint is that you can't manipulate the system for an unfair advantage if the monster class doesn't also have a favored class. It is only able to take it's racial abilities or class based abilities. If it wants to take a lvl in say sorc, then it needs to lvl it proportionate to its other class (excluding race). The core race on the other hand has a favored class which it can take a lvl in to gain abilities, then continue to lvl in a primary class. This seems to me to be very similar to what you gain with the monster race...except the monster typically will lvl its race up more than once.

I do concede that monster races with a low lvl progression should have a favored class, but those with a higher savage progression use their race as their favored class.

Well, it appears a ruling has been made, but I'll continue arguing my point. For the record, I didn't think you meant 'free' as in absolutely free, but I figured I'm make the comparison anyway.

Ok, while I'm not trying to exploit (much), I still don't think it makes sense to change a monstrous class' favored class to its race. In this campaign it is assumed that each of the playable monsterous races (MR from now on... I'm getting sick of typing it) live in some sort of civilization. Therefore they are comparable to the 'standard' races, though at this point I'm not sure we should even call them that. It is assumed that an elf or a gnome has matured enough to be able to take on adventuring classes at level 1. A MR must complete a 'savage progression' (SP) to reach the same plateau. Though, if this were an advanced campaign and we started at level 10, then most - if not all - MR would already max their SP. At this point, then, does it make sense to penalize them for choosing to be a MR? I know the argument is that they would not be penalized because their racial abilities and modifiers make up for any multi-classing they might otherwise do, but I still stand by my previous argument. The Savage Species acid test clearly points out that the level adjustments (total SP levels) make up for the difference in the racial abilities and stat modifiers. This acid test can be found on page 13 for introductory races (including Ogre, Minotaur, Lizardfolk, Drow, and Centaur among others), page 18 for intermediate races (including Gargoyle, Slaad, Satyr, and Sprite among others), page 21 for advanced races (including Ghoul, Golem, Griffon, Treant, and Yuan-Ti among others) , and gives a complete build example for a Bugbear at the end of the chapter. In each of the acid tests it shows that the level adjustment ADJUSTS the required level for the MR to be equivalent to a 'standard' race adventurer.

When an adventuring class reaches level 20 it states in either the PHB or the DMG (can't remember which) that the player may then take another class from level 1. Is this not the same? When the end of the SP is reached, it is similar to maxing an adventuring class. At this point, it should no longer count towards XP penalties, though, it clearly states that it otherwise should on page 27 of the Savage Species book. Furthermore, in many of the monster entries in the various Monstrous Manuals, it lists that race's favored class. Most online resources also show the favored classes for many of the races. Does this not imply that that race has a favored class? I guess I don't see the issue with a MR having a favored class. It is made clear in the books that the LA accounts for the difference in abilities and stat bonuses for a MR, which are spread out over a number of levels when using the SP. It's not like all of a sudden a MR gains all of its bonuses. Unlike a 'standard' race the MR is not suddenly uber powerful. In face, I'd be willing to say that at first level most MR are weaker than a standrard race because they have not gained many of the abilities that make them more powerful. Sure a full powered Ogre will destroy a first level human-adventurer, but would a 7th level human fighter lose so soundly to a Fighter(1) - Ogre? No, it would be an even match. A first level Ogre (SP) though, would likely have trouble with a first level human-fighter because it would be out feated, the ogre would still be a medium sized creature, not have its full natural armor, and not have its full stat bonuses (the 3 things that give it the higher LA). Furthermore, it would have a smaller hit die (d8) vs. the human fighter (d10) which the ogre would not even gain every level!

I guess I don't know how else to put it that being a MR does not necessarily make you uber-powerful. At this point in the game, I'm actually focusing more on the adventuring class because the first few levels of a class make for better survivability than the first few of the MR. I'm saying that considering the Monstrous Manuals, the Savage Species book, and the setting of Novemterra ('civilized' MR) it makes sense for the MR to have favored classes that would not count towards XP penalties, while the SP itself would (just like people in real life). Maybe the favored class shouldn't be considered favored until the SP has been maxed, but I think it's ridiculous to say that the MR are so powerful that they do not deserve a favored class.

Cool! With the matter settled, let's continue.

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At this point, then, does it make sense to penalize them for choosing to be a MR?

Characters are not required to multiclass, and all characters have a favored class, monstrous or not. Therefore, all characters in actuality have a favored class, and there is no actual penalty.

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The Savage Species acid test clearly points out that the level adjustments (total SP levels) make up for the difference in the racial abilities and stat modifiers. This acid test can be found on page 13 for introductory races (including Ogre, Minotaur, Lizardfolk, Drow, and Centaur among others), page 18 for intermediate races (including Gargoyle, Slaad, Satyr, and Sprite among others), page 21 for advanced races (including Ghoul, Golem, Griffon, Treant, and Yuan-Ti among others) , and gives a complete build example for a Bugbear at the end of the chapter. In each of the acid tests it shows that the level adjustment ADJUSTS the required level for the MR to be equivalent to a 'standard' race adventurer.

I don't see the connection between these stated facts and the argument.

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At this point, it should no longer count towards XP penalties, though, it clearly states that it otherwise should on page 27 of the Savage Species book.

My interpretation is that this is the default stated rule. You'll notice in Appendix 1 of the Savage Species book that many of the sample monster classes all list their own monster race as their favored class. The reference from page 27 appears to be a blanket rule put in place to prevent readers from assuming that if a monster race does not feature its own race as its favored class but an adventuring class instead, then its own monster race also need not count. The Drow is an example of a monster class that features its own levels but has favored adventuring classes.

On a side note, regarding the "level 20" concept, adding a new class after reaching level 20 in an adventuring class would requires rules for advancing into Epic levels, as per the Epic Level Handbook. I checked over the Player's Handbook and can find no reference of "free multiclass advancement," so it may (as you say) be a DMG thing, or perhaps an ELH thing. Not sure.

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Furthermore, in many of the monster entries in the various Monstrous Manuals, it lists that race's favored class. Most online resources also show the favored classes for many of the races. Does this not imply that that race has a favored class?

Note that at the beginning of the Chapter for your reference in the Savage Species book, it is stated that "this system is an alternative to the monster advancement system presented in the Monster Manual." It can be noted that the Monster Manual actually predates the Savage Species book, and so many of the concepts featured in the Savage Species book were crafted and formulated after the Monster Manual content was released. What this means is that the entire option for creating savage progressions features a well-defined ending point B, which is the full-powered base creature featured in any Monster Manual, but in fact, starting point A and the path between A and B (in terms of the savage progression) is not well-defined - there is no clear-cut formula.

What this means is that Savage Species concepts were developed to fit around existing Monster Manual content, quite possibly without an absolute 100% compatibility. This is why the Savage Species designers referenced the Monster Manual without actually using it. And what I mean by referenced is to say that they gleaned from it the base statistics for the creature - ability scores, saving throw bonuses, innate abilities, resistances, spell-like abilities, etc. etc.

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A first level Ogre (SP) though, would likely have trouble with a first level human-fighter because it would be out feated, the ogre would still be a medium sized creature, not have its full natural armor, and not have its full stat bonuses (the 3 things that give it the higher LA). Furthermore, it would have a smaller hit die (d8) vs. the human fighter (d10) which the ogre would not even gain every level!

You may be forgetting the ogre's impressive Strength bonus (divvied out across its monster levels - it would be safe to assume that it receives a Strength bonus at 1st level), which is more than a match for any feat.

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I guess I don't know how else to put it that being a MR does not necessarily make you uber-powerful.

I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but I have never believed nor supported this view simply because the entire point of savage progressions is to avoid this mentioned scenario. The reason why savage progressions was implemented in the first place is simply because a high-level monster character would be overpowered if allowed to begin play at its full Monster Manual base statistics, along with its fellow 1st-level adventuring companions. You're preaching to the choir with this one.

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Maybe the favored class shouldn't be considered favored until the SP has been maxed, but I think it's ridiculous to say that the MR are so powerful that they do not deserve a favored class.

It doesn't make sense to allow a class that wasn't favored before to become favored at the end of the progression. This is a correction to my previous policy that maxed out savage progressions suddenly no longer count for XP penalties due to multiclassing.


If nothing else satisfies, in the end I took many cues from these two references for my ruling, one of which lists favored adventuring classes, with the other listing favored monster classes.

Savage Progressions with Favored Adventuring Classes: "Level-Adjusted Races" by Sean K. Reynolds

Savage Progressions with Favored Monster Classes: D&D Excerpt: Savage Species

More examples of the latter can be found throughout Savage Species Appendix 1, which list those monster classes as having their own race as their favored classes, along with multiclassing suggestions (not further favored classes).

Dear All,

The above discussion has not only revealed an important issue that was addressed with the ruling (I feel it is more appropriate to include it as a House Rule for reference, as it may not be common standard practice), but has also caused me to recheck many of my original savage progressions in light of looking at the Savage Species book again. Please note that revisions may occur yet again, but those of you who have already submitted to me your character sheets to begin summer play need not update your own - I will do it for you, more or less as an apology not for the ruling, but for forcing all of you to endure multiple revisions, which, though ultimately for the better, may still be a challenge to accommodate.

Thanks all.

-BW


P.S. I will update with an appropriate announcement listing new Race Conpemdium version numbers, as well as announcing the ruling as a new house rule, among a couple other things.

so i'm confused...... do dracen still have just dracen as their favored class? or did you decide that dracen and other races that don't offer hp, saves, etc. don't have that restriction?

Basically, i want a "this is how it is" and that's it. no explanation required.

RaSa wrote:

so i'm confused...... do dracen still have just dracen as their favored class? or did you decide that dracen and other races that don't offer hp, saves, etc. don't have that restriction?

Basically, i want a "this is how it is" and that's it. no explanation required.

Sure. The Dracen now have either rogue or wizard as their favored class (whichever is selected first, not both). The newly updated house rule Cg5 explains the situation. The result is that all monster races that provide their own savage progressions with hp/saves/etc. feature their own race as their favored classes. Monster races that are an exception (such as the Dracen) will list their favored classes in their descriptions.

Boomerwang wrote:

Cool! With the matter settled, let's continue.

Obviously there is not a consensus... :sigh:

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Characters are not required to multiclass, and all characters have a favored class, monstrous or not. Therefore, all characters in actuality have a favored class, and there is no actual penalty.

There is not a direct penalty, but it is putting those characters at a disadvantage relative to one who could easily multi-class because they have a favored adventuring class.

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The Savage Species acid test clearly points out that the level adjustments (total SP levels) make up for the difference in the racial abilities and stat modifiers. This acid test can be found on page 13 for introductory races (including Ogre, Minotaur, Lizardfolk, Drow, and Centaur among others), page 18 for intermediate races (including Gargoyle, Slaad, Satyr, and Sprite among others), page 21 for advanced races (including Ghoul, Golem, Griffon, Treant, and Yuan-Ti among others) , and gives a complete build example for a Bugbear at the end of the chapter. In each of the acid tests it shows that the level adjustment ADJUSTS the required level for the MR to be equivalent to a 'standard' race adventurer.

I don't see the connection between these stated facts and the argument.

The connection is that the savage progression does not make for an uber powerful character. So if the character is not uber powerful, what is the reason for taking away (I know they still have a 'favored' class of their race, but what good is it once the progression is maxed?) something that every other character has?

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At this point, it should no longer count towards XP penalties, though, it clearly states that it otherwise should on page 27 of the Savage Species book.

My interpretation is that this is the default stated rule. You'll notice in Appendix 1 of the Savage Species book that many of the sample monster classes all list their own monster race as their favored class. The reference from page 27 appears to be a blanket rule put in place to prevent readers from assuming that if a monster race does not feature its own race as its favored class but an adventuring class instead, then its own monster race also need not count. The Drow is an example of a monster class that features its own levels but has favored adventuring classes.

My interpretation of the rule is that you have to reach the end of the progression to multi-class, but the house rule eliminates this aspect. With the need for a complete progression, it would eliminate any need for a character having its race as the favored class. I cannot find reference to the Drow having a favored adventuring class in the Savage Species book.

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On a side note, regarding the "level 20" concept, adding a new class after reaching level 20 in an adventuring class would requires rules for advancing into Epic levels, as per the Epic Level Handbook. I checked over the Player's Handbook and can find no reference of "free multiclass advancement," so it may (as you say) be a DMG thing, or perhaps an ELH thing. Not sure.

It can be found on page 207 of the DMG. It states that you can add a second class at first level, though you do not gain the BAB or any of that stuff. Essentially by saying that the SP counts as much as an adventuring class (ie. replacing the favored adventuring class with a racial class), then that is saying that the 2~10ish levels of the SP are worth the same as 20 adventuring class levels. This could go on to say that by completing my progression does this make me an epic level character? Obviously, this does not make sense, but the argument could definitely be made. (please don't focus on this, it's just a side point, i know there are other reasons it does not work.) If the SP only goes for 4 to 10 levels roughly for MR with hit dice, etc. then shouldn't it be possible to continue leveling these to account for the additional levels in an adventuring class? What I'm trying to point out is that an SP is not equivalent to a complete adventuring class progression. If one wants to take 10 levels in barbarian and 1 level in cleric (with barb as favored), it could work out extremely well. But for an SP, this becomes impossible, because the little bonuses a standard class can gain from a 1-level-multiclass are completely lost. Sure, you wouldn't gain all the level 1 benefits, but with something like the example, you would be able to heal yourself a few times a day while still going ball to the wall in battle. Despite what you have convinced yourself of thinking, it is putting a MR character at a disadvantage by not allowing them to have this option.

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A first level Ogre (SP) though, would likely have trouble with a first level human-fighter because it would be out feated, the ogre would still be a medium sized creature, not have its full natural armor, and not have its full stat bonuses (the 3 things that give it the higher LA). Furthermore, it would have a smaller hit die (d8) vs. the human fighter (d10) which the ogre would not even gain every level!

You may be forgetting the ogre's impressive Strength bonus (divvied out across its monster levels - it would be safe to assume that it receives a Strength bonus at 1st level), which is more than a match for any feat.

The point here is that the SP is equivalent to the standard class+adventuring level when considering ECL. Of course the Ogre will have some strength bonuses, but what if it were a Half-Orc instead of a human? Makes the choice a lot tougher, which is exactly the point. What I'm saying is that the SP accounts for what otherwise would be a great imbalance. So by removing the ability of a MR to effectively multi-class (it is still possible, but this makes things much more difficult) you are putting them at an unfair disadvantage.

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Maybe the favored class shouldn't be considered favored until the SP has been maxed, but I think it's ridiculous to say that the MR are so powerful that they do not deserve a favored class.

It doesn't make sense to allow a class that wasn't favored before to become favored at the end of the progression. This is a correction to my previous policy that maxed out savage progressions suddenly no longer count for XP penalties due to multiclassing.

Actually, considering the potential intent of the Savage Progression rule on page 27, this could make sense. If the intent is that you cannot 'multi-class' until the progression is complete, then according to the Epic Character rules (similar concept, not actually epic) you would then be able to take a level in something else. If that something else were a 'favored' class then so be it.

I think one of the other things that continues to go unaddressed is the fact that all the races (MR or standard) are considered to be part of the 'standard novemterra races'. This means that shouldn't all of them be considered standard at this point? Sure, some of them take a bit longer to mature to their potential, but that is only the physical and mental aspect, not the adventuring. It is assumed that an Elf has already reached this point when s/he starts a campaign, but this wouldn't be fair in a low level campaign for something like an Ogre. Therefore, there needs to be some adjustment, which is taken into account with the SP. What isn't taken into account with the new rule is that once the Ogre reaches the end of the SP he should be at the same point in his life that the Elf was at the beginning of the campaign. Should the Elf not gain a favored class either, then?

Lastly, it is completely ridiculous to give some of the MR multiple choices for favored classes. I'm sorry, but this is completely unfair to both standard races and the now-kicked-to-the-curb MR with the HD, saving throws, etc. Sure, they can only take one, but that gives that race so much more versatility in what it opts to be. This versatility is limited with standard races and completely non-existant in the HD-MRs.

/concur. sorry jerry ^^

Archtemplari wrote:

/concur. sorry jerry ^^

Excellent, thanks for letting me know.

[Edit: In truth, I ought to thank everyone for their input, and to all those who didn't contribute directly but still showed their support and patience. So... thanks!]

Trevor's post snuck in before mine (grrrr haha), so here it is again:

Thinking the issue over, I have come to agree that a more reasonable and agreeable approach to this issue can be made. In lieu of the aforementioned ad-hoc ruling, I suggest the following instead:

A Core-Superior monstrous character does not have a favored class until it completes its savage progression. At this point, its completed monster levels no longer count toward multiclassing penalties. Additionally, the character now receives its race's favored [adventuring] class as its favored class.

I am not sure if you had suggested something like this in an earlier post. I apologize if it appears I hijacked your idea, but this approach was in fact devised independently. I feel that this new ruling is much more fair and consistent with the game world, while still maintaining balance. The key in the monstrous character not having a favored class is essentially to compel the advancement of the savage progression, something that should occur naturally but that would been too restricted given the Savage Species default rule ("no multiclassing until progression finished").

I appreciate hearing everyone's input on this. I am looking forward to concluding the issue as soon as possible, hoping that this new ruling will become the standard.

sounds good to me! on with the game!

Sweet. My house rules have been revised with Cg5, which simply displays the above revised ruling. Thanks all. Yeah, let's go! Chapter 2 is up, and you may post when ready. Still awaiting a revised sheet from Ben - you can start too, just make sure I get a copy before the first encounter. :)

looks good. are you still open a slot?

In fact, I am. If you'd like to join, I'll just need you to revise your character race based on your home Shell. :)

so i need to choose a new race, huh?

edit: where the heck do i find the stats for these new races? i don't see a link to them anywhere here on the forums.

https://amurizon.rpg-board.net/novemterra-f8/announcements-and-updates-t124.htm

The links for the races are found in the announcements thread. Presumably if you were a miderthian elf you would update any changes that are noted in the Miderth excel sheet for 'Elf'. Not sure which shell you are from, because I think there are other elf listings depending on shell. Jerry can probably tell you directly which one, but at least this will get you started in the right direction.

hmm. i opened those race compendiums, but they didn't have anything in there except the "how to read these compendiums" sorts of things (they were all the same, except for the title). just to check, i opened the class compendium, and all i got was templar. i was a gaian wood elf -- so um...what now?

Those are just the first pages of the race compendiums. Near the bottom of the program window you'll find some tabs representing the other pages, known as worksheets:



Same thing with the Class Compendium. :)