Common OOC thread

ttbek wrote:

How about Aasimar, I know they aren't on your list, but half fiends are (though you spelled them as half fields). They're given a +1 ecl (or was it cr? I forget, and it's bad if it's cr because then the ecl is actually higher) in the MM. So I could only start on first level, the lack of hp could hurt. Also the dichotomy (Aasimar warlock) could make for an intersting backstory and character development.

Oops, my mistake on the spelling.

Aasimar are indigenous to Shell 1 so unfortunately for this campaign they will be unavailable as a character race option. In terms of interesting backstory it could certainly prove interesting, but I think there potential lies more with a player than any trait of the character. There's something to be said about a typical human paladin... who's a kleptomaniac by genetic disposition.

Ah, I didn't know that they were. Of course the potential lies with the player. Do you have advancement tables for the half fiend then? Well actually, in general, which advancements are available?

Funny you should ask, as so far it has been a slow-ish day at work so I'm actually doing heavy revisions on the class compendium spreadsheet. (whoa, my post just auto-corrected its spelling, uh thanks IE7?) Anyway, if today continues to be slow I'll put that time to good use working on the Monster class revisions too.

But I currently can't remember off the top of my head what's been done so far and what hasn't. Oh! That's right, I forgot to send you the monster classes. It's also a spreadsheet. I'll do it as soon as I can get the file from home.

The monster class sheets that are blank will be the ones that haven't been done yet.

You know how I said I would do my character today? Not happenning, except maybe late at night if I happen to see those monster tables before then. Mainly though because we got on extension on the math homework and there's more I would like to do on that. Sorry for not answering the phone calls, Math is eating my life. Yesterday I did math from 6:30 in the morning until 3:00 the next morning.

No problem at all, I understand how those classes can get. Definitely not for the faint of heart.

I have the character sheets at my place the next time you're all in town. I have at least one of your characters in their andrew, though honestly I really don't remember him at all from any games. As to the mix-matched character, it would depend on how you played it out and how crafty you are. The added skill points would aid you incredibly in everything but direct combat, the multitude of abilities would also make you more versatile than any other character. You could use pretty much every skill as a trained ability and they wouldn't cost you extra points to raise the ranks (you would just lvl the class that had them as a primary skill set). The low lvl spells (cantrips and 1st lvl spells) are honestly some of the best spells in the game. I understand in combat fireball can be a more devastating spell, however, a well used cantrip can do almost as much dmg, especially when you can wield a weapon capable of inflicting large lvls of damage as well. A mage can cast a spell, but after that what? A dagger for a d4 dmg? Imagine that mage imobilizing you with a well placed grease spell, then attacking with a great axe for a d12 instead. He has perfect balance from his spider climb spell, and doesn't need armor because his lvl in monk allows him to use his mod to ac instead of armor so he has no problem casting spells. If he is wounded, he immediately can heal himself, and continue the fight from a distance using his martial weapons skills. I grant you the character wouldn't match up well against a character who took just one class and maxed it (ie, a lvl 20 character vs a lvl 20 char who has 1 lvl in every class) but as far as roleplaying it would be incredibly versatile, and in combat he/she would actually be quite effective. Able to kill a great wyrm, probably not, but very able to avoid combat if played well.

the only thing i think you could run into is the alignment restrictions and potentially weapon restrictions (clerics still can't use some types of weapons, right?). it would definitely make it interesting, but it could become very difficult.

That's why you don't take one level in everything, but a few levels in every type. then you'd make a perfect bard. take most of your levels in bard, a few levels in a fighter type, few in a magic type, and few in a sneak type to really abuse the system :)

(what happened to the edit button?)

And P.S. homework is one of the main reasons why i'm glad that I R Gradumatated.

Ok, edit button should be fixed. Sorry about that! *grumble* darn permissions *grumble*

[edit] Yup! Edit button is fixed. :)

excellent. thank you for your fixing :)

Alterith, yeah, pretty much what I was saying is that it doesn't stact up, but choosing a few selectively can do a world of good. I'm considering Warlock/Ninja. Wis bonus to AC, bonus damage, reasonable weapon selection, Warlock's spell list is good for concealment, mobility, etc... can take an invocation to attach the Warlock's eldritch blast to a weapon attack. Imagine getting hit with a decent weapon, by something invisible walking somewhere on the ceiling above you, with bonus damage, and a wonderful zap of spell damage. Also can find traps :) and make magic items :) :) Say said character was also a half-celestial... Boomer, may I do this? Starting as Ninja 1/Half Fiend 1. (Half Celestial would be better, but I think it's not an option)

P.S. Edit button is still working.

I fully admitted that a character designed to be powerful would be far more effective, however, your statement was that said all-class character would be good for nothing more than crappy hack/slash which I contend is the opposite of the truth. The character would be extremely versatile, with incredible saves (read immune to pretty much all mind-magic, taking half damage from everything reflex based). Only a weak player would make this kind of character into a "diluted hack/slash" type. I'm not saying this is the best course of action, or that the character would be a master, he would really be the true bard, a jack of all trades/master of none type character. I'm just saying that it would actually be a viable character design. As far as alignment/weapons, you would have to choose stuff carefully, alignment lawful-good (for paladin) and as far as weapons go you'd have to choose a pantheon that allowed bladed weapons (last I read there are a couple) or you would have to choose a god for bards who would support your multiclassing-ness. If you can convince the dm that what you are doing is worthy, then it can be assumed your god continues to grant you spells even though you wield other weapons. Otherwise you would just have to put the weapon down in honor to your god every time you cast a spell from him/her.

i don't have a book in front of me, but if your DM was flexible enough, you might even be able to get around some of the alignment/weapon restrictions. the druid i believe requires one neutral axis and the barbarian requires one chaotic axis... so these two would be out unless the DM deemed the 'lifestyle' of your type of druid/barbarian was fitting enough for the class. it would be a stretch, but it might be able to be explained through roleplaying.

Actually recall that you don't have wonderful stats for every class. Hence you may not be able to cast spells, if you can you will have low casting level and and the cantrips won't be anywhere near as useful as you're making them out to be (10 cr creatures often means lots of HD, they all have decent saves and so do normal 10th level characters). AC would be a serious problem, you point out the wisdom bonus to AC, only useful if you have a good Wis though. Even in that case You would also need a good dexterity to have an armorclass that would keep you alive against creatures of your CR. The good saves would be nice, but 10th level spellcasters definitely have ways around that. If you're only 1st level for each you'll barely ever hit 10 cr creatures because your base attack bonus would be low (only the main fighters:fighters, monks, barbarian) receive an attack bonus on first level, most don't get it until second. I am being somewhat overcritical, you're with a party and you're not about to die out of hand, but it's not a good situation unless your abilities make up for it, but they couldn't in this campaign even if you rolled all eighteens because Jerry limited base ability modifiers at a total of +10 before races are applied. If we're applying races though this could be a rather different story. Also things like the Paladin's healing is based on that particular class level, hence only one. The skill set is good overall, but they do stagnate. That is class skill when you level up as rogue are not considered class skills when you're taking your next level as say fighter, I'm not sure if you were considering that or not. Also there's redundancy, some get the same abilities and they don't stack (Monk and Ninja bonus AC from Wis). As a result I would say that the character would be a diluted hack slash, not becuase he would be without spells (though with low ability scores for the appropriate abilities he could be nearly without spells), but because an ecl difference in actual strength of just two levels is enough to be completely clobbered. I've seen it happen, not wih a multiclassed character, but one that was two levels behind, especially in the lower levels (one even, or just minor differences, in say AC). If you don't believe me, try making one, get someone to use a normal 10th level character and see just how big the difference is. I'm probably thinking about this far too much, especially since I don't think anyone is actually thinking of trying it in game.

I know in trevor's campaigns he would allow for a paladin to be alignments other than LG. If you think about it, it really doesn't make sense that a paladin of the death god would be LG.

And you won't have wonderful stats, but if you choose to use the point buy system, you can effectively have a 12 in every stat except for one, where you would get a 13. that allows you to cast spells, and get a +1 bonus to every single stat. Instead of min/maxing your character, a level 1 spell would get a +1 bonus instead of a +3 or +4 bonus. that is only a 2-3 difference, and not THAT significant.

AC shouldn't be a problem. As you'd be level 11 before you get all the standard classes, and possibly even higher if you wanted to multiclass all the additional standard classes from other books besides the PHB, you would have a decent amount of money to buy items such as bracers of armor +X and ring of protection +X. These items give you bonuses to AC without any penalties whatsoever. in addition, you can take expertise to lower your BAB and raise your AC. you can also choose to fight defensively if you're really that worried about it.

And the reason a multiclassed character is effective against a straight character is versatility. Say that you're playing a level 10 fighter, and i'm playing a level 5 wizard, level 5 fighter. In hand to hand combat, you'll kick my ass, yes. However, i'm gonna start the battle by casting a spell to buy me some time. then hit you with a fireball or two, and then cast some spells which will make my fighting better, and finish you off in your own game, while you're in a weakened state. It's all about how you play your abilities. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i remember Ben, Alex, and a few others talking about 10 different ways that you could legally use Prestidigitation to kill someone. If you make a character that is insanely multiclassed such as that, you COULDN'T head straight into combat against a fighter, and you COULDN'T sit back and try to cast your magic missile at a mage who is hitting you with cone of cold and disintegrate. what you can do, is rush up and attack the mage, and cast as many spells as you can to keep yourself away from the blades of the fighter. keep in mind that you'll have the same amount of income as a character that went one straight level, so you could have ungodly powerful items, when if chosen right, will make you just as effective as another character. You may only be a level 1 wizard, but if you have a wand that lets you cast fireball 50 times at 10d6, you're still gonna cause some serious damage.

Actually with either of the roll systems Jerry is using you can probably do better than +6. Your comment about the spell bonuses doesn't make sense, caster level in important there, more so than just the stat. You're making a lot of assumptions regarding what items are available, as they will vary by campaign and DM. Secondly, everyone else can get them too. You can probably slow down fighters a little bit, but their saves aren't bad, and with such a low caster level...good luck. The defensive fighting you mention, BAB is a problem as well, add it up, it might be comparable to a 10th level wizards unless you're purposely choosing more fighting class...but that's not really the situation under consideration. The Wizard 5/Fighter 5 isn't under consideration either, that's more of what I was saying worked well. Also you're not killing anyone with prestidigation unless your DM is extremely lenient or in an extremely rare situation. You can't rush up and attack said mage, because said mage will delay you as you planned to delay the fighter, and he'll be an awful lot better at it (various forms of concealment, wall of fire, lots of different things) Also your opponent could have spell resistance, often at least 10 when they do, which makes a significant difference against a 1st level caster, which you might be considered even when using wands (though I forget). Anyways, we're getting extensively into, "if you had..."'s and it's kind of pointless to go through the infinitely many of them. My comments were directed at the general case. Without such extra items as the fireball wand slowing down the fighter is pretty pointless, because let's face it, magic missiles doesn't do much to a tenth level fighter. Though I completely agree about the Paladin, those kinds of things should be completely campaign and role specific.

again, no books in front of me, but i believe there are "paladins" that are not LG. they're called something else, but are essentially the same. i'll try to figure it out when i'm off work.

You are correct, they're pretty cool, though I also forget what they're called.

fallen paladin? black guard (prestige class)?

i think that's right...

There is that, but I've also seen a regular class that was an evil paladin.

You still seem to be missing my point. I granted you that a straight class (or designed multi-class character) would destroy the character in question in a fight. It doesn't matter whether they are a mage, fighter, cleric, paladin, druid, or what-have-you. Especially not if it was played in a manner you seem to be thinking is the only way to play it. I mean, you talk about prestidigitation killing, magic missile not hurting a 10th lvl fighter, no kidding. Notice I wasn't talking about either of those abilities in those methods. It sounds to me like if you played this character he would be a worthless waste of time, the lackluster hack-and-slasher you keep talking about him being. I am talking about his versatility as a charcter. When forced into combat he would have more than enough means to handle himself respectably. There are any number of underused spells that are incredibly effective. Would he kill powerful enemies? Probably not, as I said in the last post, but I was talking about more useful spells like grease (one of the most useful spells of any lvl). I mean, I can't lay out a particular combat without being in one. Every situation is unique with particular factors that will dictate what is most useful. You have the mage who can study your basic necessary spells, then your sorc would have some alternate options to switch to given the situation. As far as saves go, you have to pick your spells with care, save is gonna be 10+spell lvl+caster lvl+abil mod, depending on the spell. I'm not saying every spell is good in every situation, I'm just saying that spells give the fighter an advantage in combat. As far as stat mods go, they aren't all that important. If you're worried about something in particular, then boost that stat up with items, with lvls (every 4 you still get a stat point even if they aren't 4 in the same class) or just at character creation. You keep making it sound like this game is a continuous hack and slash combat. I contend that this is a sign of a weak player (and a weak campaign if it lives up to this expectation). There is a lot more to roleplaying than combat and yet that is all you are contending. I'm saying it'd be a good character to play with a huge amount of opportunity for the smart player to take advantage of. I've played characters with incredible stats and untouchable powers who were defeated by something as simple as a piece of glass and a really bad die roll. I've also had characters who's highest stat was an 8 but who became a rather lethal character when played correctly. It takes skill to make a bad character effective, but it can be done. All I am saying is don't rule out this as an effective character style just because you can't think of a good way to use it. I'm tempted to do it with bloodlust just to demonstrate what it can become. I won't, because its not the route I want him to take, I have other plans for my halfling barbarian crazy split personality psycho. But if/when he dies, I think I will do this just to see if it can work or not. I don't know, it might really suck, but I'm not willing to rule it out just because it isn't a standard build progression.

The comments about prestidigation, etc... were in response to Rasa's comment. Combat isn't the largest portion of the game, but it tends to be the part where you're most likely to die. I'm not saying that it is impossible to do well this way, just that it is extremely difficult to do so and even with everything in your favor it wouldn't quite stack up against a straight class character. I'm well aware of the ability bonus's etc... Of course Jerry expressed a dislike for the idea, he may keep your barbarian alive infinitely to prevent you from ever trying such a character. And if you do try to, as DM he could make it basically impossible.

It's not so much a matter of it being a playable character, that it certainly is. It's an awful lot to deal with for a character that will be weaker than otherwise though.